Episode 3 – Can you make money from Pirates? Interview with Enzo Tedeschi

        In Episode 3, I speak with producer, editor, director and distributor Enzo Tedeschi on





In Episode 3, I speak with producer, editor, director and distributor Enzo Tedeschi on how to create a film career outside the normal film path. Enzo Tedeschi has produced, edited or directed several films most of them crowdfunded. I first came across Enzo Tedeschi when they were financing The Tunnel by selling each frame of the film for $1 and giving the film away for free on the P2P network (ie the “Pirate network”) 

Enzo Tedeschi has won numerous awards for his groundbreaking work most notoriously the Breakthrough Producer of The Year, SPAA 2011 

In this inspiring episode you will learn:

How to crowdfund your film frame by frame 

How to work with “Pirates” to get your film distributed

How to make money from Pirates

How to build an audience database

How to build a relationship with your fans and much much more


Enzo Tedeschi on the set of Airlock with cast and crew

Do you want to work with Thomas on your next project? Hire Thomas as your coach http://smartfilmincome.com/coaching/

Full transcript of the interview below 

Thomas: Hello and welcome to episode number 3 of Smart Film Income Podcast, and today I am very excited because I have Enzo Tedeschi with me. And the reason why I’m bringing Enzo on this podcast is because Enzo presided on several film products now is not conventional in any shape or form. And this comes to traditional financing or traditional waiting for money to come around or just doing things in any conventional matter and I am just inspired and thrilled by having Enzo, because Enzo has done things completely the opposite way. My hope is that after you listen to this podcast today that Enzo will put a little bit of fire in your belly. So Enzo, welcome to the podcast.

Enzo:  Thank you, Thomas. You’re very kind.

Thomas: You’re more than welcome. Enzo, let’s start with the beginning. So you and I crossed path when you were doing “The Tunnel”.

ENZO: Correct.

Thomas: And, can you just explain a little bit about “The Tunnel” and why I thought and why the whole world thought that it was unconventional the way you did it?

ENZO: Yeah. So, when we did “The Tunnel” that was in 2010 that we were filming and pulling to get a little money to do what was basically our first feature film. When I say “us”, it’s myself and Julian. We cut right at the project and produced it. And, when we were looking at financing and trying to do a film that was probably doing to be cost close to a million dollars in traditional terms and whatever, looking around at the financing options and starting to warm up investors and all that sort of stuff that you do. We found that we were finding it hard to make the numbers made in terms of a sound business proposition for any investors, right? Because, as we know, film is very, very tough. We were no-names which was even tougher. So even if we could convince these people to give us money, there was no way that we could present the information that we’re going “well, you have this much now, in 12 months’ time you will have this much back” because, that’s what an investment is. You put money in and you get out of people more than you put back and everyone’s happy.    

Thomas: Exactly!

ENZO: So we just looked at it and went “this is kind of broken and just doesn’t work for us” so, what we ended up doing was going “alright, so let’s think outside the box a little bit. How can we do this so that it works for us so we don’t leave anybody aching from having lost a bunch of cash and get out names out there as film makers”? So, at the time crowdfunding was very early on, very, very new. You know, Kickstarted was maybe a year old. I think the most significant thing that has been “kickstarted” at the time, was a statue of Robocop for about $13000 or something like that.

Thomas: Yeah!

ENZO: So we were looking at that and these guys are basically getting money for whatever they want if they can find the right people so why don’t we look into doing something like that and we build our own version of a crowdfunding campaign without using any of the major platforms. So I’ve decided that.

Thomas: Yeah, so that’s very interesting. So why did you decide not to use the established platforms and campaign sites like Indiegogo or Kickstarter around the time? Why did you build your own?

ENZO: Because the idea that we came up with was that we were trying to sell a frame of the film, pre-sale a frame of the film at a dollar, each. Because across the entire film was 135000 frames and that would be enough money to be worked on and we could probably make the movie or a different version of the movie if we make 150 million dollars that we could make it on that money. So then we went backwards from there. We said “Can we use something like Kickstarted to do that if that really builds to something like that you have tiered structure on Kickstarted or the Indiegogo and whatever and it’s kicking at this amount, you’ve got this reward, kicking at that award and that amount and whatever, so, what we wanted to create was what we thought at the time suited us better which was a lot simpler, which was one frame, one dollar. And if you wanted to buy 25 frames, you could buy 25 frames. If you want 1000 frames or 1500 frames, as some people did, than you can do that, too. And you’ll always have more of the film to look at. So know?

Thomas: So, is the real the frame digital frame or physical frames?

ENZO: Digital frames. Flashing forward to the release date of the film I think was the day before or maybe the week before the film came out, if I recall correctly, people could send an email out to all of our actors and could jump onto our website and type in their email and the number of frames that they purchased. There was kind of a log-in and the site would automatically process their prearranged – because they all had numbers that had been assigned to them, a preorder – the system would search those frames and stick their name on it as well so the frames were personalized and then bundle them up for them to download it as a C12.

Thomas: And, from a technical point of view, did you chose 24 frames/second or 25 frames/second?

ENZO: 25, because we were in Australia and 135000 looks better than whatever random number you get when you multiply 24.

Thomas: Well, that’s settled because there’s always a big argument going one way or the other way but in this case it made more sense from this the crowdfunding persective. So, you have the crop from your campaign up and running on your site as many ask about that. How did you get attention, how did you get people to find out about this?

ENZO: Well, we had a certain level of support. You know how crowdfunding works better than just about anybody I guess but we got started with our core of people so we started with the family and the friends and the colleagues and Julian and I were in a position where we both were already working in the television industry and starting to get to know people in the film industry, as well. So, there was a nice little seeding audience that we had access to and some media contacts and things like that. So, we started to get the work out there but I think what worked for us, what really set off or part of what set it off, is yes, we had the teaser, yes we had the website, yes, we had the crowdfunding campaign that were all part of a very slick package but we also, as part of the strategy set, we were asking the internet to crowdfund us and pay for these thing. We didn’t feel like it was the right thing to do, to ask people to pay for a frame to watch it, so we decided to give it away. And we decided to go up from there instead of giving it away to the people that put money into buy frames; we actually gave it away to the entire world via Bit torrent and YouTube for free.

Thomas: And this is where I think it’s very interesting what you are doing and many of the other stuff you’ve done since. We’re going to talk about that. But, in what sane mind – normally a film-maker is trained to believe that pirates are bad, the film-makers believe that you’ve got to protect your film from people out there to steal, they’ve put it behind it walls, you have to get passwords or soul-phrase to get inside. They’re so afraid to get leaked, they’re so afraid of the value of the film to get decompressed, that it will be absolutely zero. But here you are, you’re from the other side going “Hey, we’re going to give a film away for free. Not only that, but we’re going to upload it ourselves to the pier-to-pier network which is the pirate network. On what sane mind did you come up with that conclusion which I respect? I think it’s absolutely beautiful, but what made you decide this? Because it’s very unconventional.

ENZO:  Well, first of all I think that working in the film industry at any level, whether it’s at our level back then or at the top level. I don’t think that sanity had a great deal to do with anything so the idea was for us —you said filmmakers are trained to say piracy is bad. Piracy does suck, piracy makes our lives really, really difficult. Right?

Thomas: Yes.

ENZO: Because diminishing returns, diminishing budgets makes it really difficult to do anything with any great value attached to it because you’re always fighting that battle.

Thomas: Yeah!

ENZO: What we were sort of looking at was kind of “Our top priority with his particular film, giving that we’re crowd funding it and therefor don’t owe any money, right? So, we hit a break-even at release date because it’s been paid for to some degree. So, our top priority with “The Tunnel” was to get ourselves noticed, to get our names out there as film-makers, to get people watching what we were doing, to establish ourselves as some competent people in the film-making industry. So that was the first box we wanted to tick and putting everything behind a paint wall when trying to convince people to pay for a film from a bunch of nobody’s was not the smartest move. So we just said “what if we take it away to people instead of paying and we just encourage people to freely share us and download for free, sharing is ok. I mean made probably the just only film in the history that can very soundly claim a zero piracy factor. Because you can’t pirate a film that’s given away for free.

Thomas: No, I think you and the Iron sky people did the same thing.

ENZO: Yeah, exactly!

Thomas: So there you are, you all go to the film for free to the internet, to the pirate networks and you send out a press release or what do you do?

ENZO: Yeah, we do all that stuff, so we had a publicist on-board to help us manage stuff that we’re bringing to the table because we were getting a lot of enquiries via online but we also had a publicist to help us reach out to traditional media, which is often the challenging part. What we found was that, as we were doing things online, that there was a feedback that was starting to happen, so if we were able to feed traditional media with what was happening online than the word-of-mouth would grow and that, in turn, would feed what was happening online and that would grow. And when that grew, that gave us something new to talk about and we would be able to feed the traditional media with that and it was just almost like an outward spiral of feedback loop, you know. It just kept growing and growing and growing. I mean we never anticipated that it would grow to the degree it did, which was amazing.

Thomas: And for those people who don’t know, so here is the awkward part, here is where the very, very interesting part of it is, because even though you release it for free online, on pirate networks, you still had distributors come knocking.

ENZO: Well, yes we did, in some cases. And in the first instance we managed to get a meeting with Transmission and Paramount and we just walked in there, just sort of going, “Look, we didn’t walk in to impeach though; we didn’t walk in to try and sell our film. We walked in there with a bunch of stuff which we shot already and this is what we’re thinking “we’re going to give it away in the news” but it was very, very generous of them to even give us their time to begin with, a conversation that was so odd. But we found that it was received pretty favorably to the point where they went “you know what? We’ll go on this ride with you. And let’s see if we can ship some units into retail stores and etcetera, etcetera”. So, that was very courageous of them and I think they caught their own share of flat for that because it was like “Wow, you’re supporting piracy”. They wanted it, obviously, and they understood that the, quote on quote, callous to be really did not appreciate that but we ended up doing deals in Germany and in North America and I don’t think any of those international deals we sought out, they did came knocking to us saying “Well, maybe we can do something. There’s a huge amount of word of mouth, let’s see if we can do it”

Thomas: So, this is what it comes down to. Definitely one of my believes is that the content is not the king, the audiences is the king, that’s the new king. And you go out there and you find this audience and even though it’s free, pirating, how many people watching this film for free online when this is happening? Can you give some proximate numbers?

ENZO: At the time or now?

Thomas: Well, back then and also accumulating now.

ENZO: So, I think within the first — I’m trying to think back — within the first 10 or 11 months of release, maybe not even that long, we managed to wrap up a million downloads off the official torrent. So what that means is that that was the only place that we’ve officially gone, it is your place to get it. As you well know, the torrent eco-system means that people are downloading are re-uploading and sharing and repackaging torrents or whatever, so by the time we hit a million on the viral torrent, I think we were probably seeding on 5 million totals.

Thomas: Ok, and so this starts creating lots of people talking about it  and so normally you’d chase distributors, but distributors came to you, which is also very unconventional . Normally you really have to go know knock on their doors.

ENZO: Yeah, and it’s an interesting conversation when that happens. Thomas, I’ve got to tell you that I’ve been on both sides of the equation, or in both situations. When you walk into a conversation with a distributor or financier and you’ve come to them, cold, and if they come to you. That’s a very, very different conversation.

Thomas: Absolutely. So, it gets into retail stores, you start selling it on DVD’s around the world and then it also ends up in theatres, right?

ENZO: Yes, the Canadians put it in cinemas for a while and it ran for about a month, here, in Sydney as well.

Thomas: So the non-conventional way of doing this is: you release a film first, in the theatres and it goes to pay-TV, then it goes to DVD and then it goes to free TV. But you did the opposite, you went and pirated it first, and then you went to DVD and then to some places to cinema.

ENZO: Correct. That’s exactly what happened. The challenge is that back then, before the release in 2011 so that’s four and a half years ago, but back then everybody told us we were mental. Right? Like, absolutely crazy. Every single person “this is never going to work, you really are too crazy”. We just said that “It’s crazy but it’s so crazy that it looks like it might work.” This is not something we’ve done on a whim; we’ve actually thought this through, the calculated strategy. And flash-forward to now, and not even now, 2 and a half years after that suddenly every man and their dog is making web-series. Which is what they are doing. For the most part they’re crowdfunding and then they’re releasing it on YouTube for free. And it’s like there’s no money in that now but apparently that’s now an accepted thing. Another couple of years to now and suddenly there are places in the world and particularly in Europe where people are actually starting to buy web-series, acquire them and distribute them because they’re no longer this thing that you do for free to just prove you’re mental. There’s actually something of value on their own. So the market is catching up, I feel like we were like 5 years ahead of the curve.

Thomas: Absolutely. And first they ridicule you. When they ridicule you, that’s something. So, that’s really good. So, good on you and Julian for doing this at that time. Speaking of web-series, you guys went on and made a web-series next. I mean, I know you work as a producer, as an editor, as a director, you wear many hats, and you have quite a lot persons on “I’m to be” and if you’re listening to this, please check out on Enzo and his work on “I’m to be” and other sites. So, “The Tunnel” was the first film that you produced. It came out in the TV world. So you guys were certainly “event 0”. Talk about that

ENZO: So, we had just come back from the United States where we had screened and traveled with “the Tunnel” to a couple of film festivals over there which was an interesting experience, and we were looking at what our next project was going to be. And an opportunity came up —there was a competition that was running at the time with movie extra channel which at the time was called “Web fest” — and it was in its second year and they were basically offering a budget against a pitch, so it was like “upload you’re one minute pitch trailer and then it get voted by hunters and then a panel of judges will decide who gets awarded the budget of 100.0000 dollars to go and make a web-series for their channel. So we just went “you know what, we have this idea of what they were talking about, we think it’s going to be episodic so let’s try together and put up a pitch which we did and eventually won the budget for that, so we spent 100000 dollars making 7 episodes of around about 5 minutes each, they vary.

Thomas: Good on you for making that pitch, because I remember that. But do you think that because you built up this audience and because people are following you or not following you, you built up a good will, already gave some away, you have a bigger crowd than the average starting film maker. Do you think there was an equation between doing the film online for free for everyone and out doing the next thing where people have to vote? Do you think that helped you a lot in terms of votes?

ENZO: Yes, it did. Absolutely. We did have a small data base of emails from the first film that we were able to feed out to people and just go “Hey, you’ve seen what we’re doing, help us vote and get us across the line”. That was a huge thumb up. I don’t think we were the most voted pitch that round, though. But I believe that the judging panel probably did factor in our success with “The Tunnel” and the eye-balls that we had and the quality of having a bit of a track record into their decision in awarding us the thing. And it is funny; we did have a couple of conversations before the decision was made. Because on paper it looked like it was — it probably was, in some way — a very ambitious series.

Thomas: Extremely ambitious. Extremely ambitions.

ENZO: Yes, and then we got called from them going “Now, look, we’ll be honest with you. We’re just like ‘really, can you do this, on 100.000 dollars’? Can you achieve this?” We were like “Yeah, man. Just give us the money and we’ll deliver”. And it did very well at festivals and etcetera. So we were vindicated there but, it’s funny because — and I’ll assume this is probably where you were going next — is that the audience for that show was nowhere near as large an audience as we did with “The tunnel”. And there’s a bunch of factors there, one of which is – sure, to date I think we’ve had close to 40 million views and downloads with “The Tunnel” however, I wish I had 4 or 50 million emails which would make my life very, very easy right now. But the reality is we had a very small fraction of that number.

Thomas: Sorry, not to interrupt you but I’m going to get a little technical with you. So, you said you had a small data base of email addresses. How many did you have, how did you get them? If the film was up there for free, how did you build your data base?

ENZO: The email data base was basically the people that fetched money during the crowd funding campaign. All people that have subscribed to our mailing list, subsequently.

Thomas: And how many roughly was there? Can you ascertain?

ENZO: I think it was about 4-5000 emails.

Thomas: Ok, that’s pretty good.

ENZO: It was healthy. It’s funny about that data base is that people don’t actively subscribe. If you just go “that’s part of a purchase”, you can wrap it in there and you can do all time of things legally but sometimes people they really realize that they’re signing up even if it’s a page click if you want to buy it and be done with it. So if you had an email data base like that of about 4-5000 people realistically it’s probably only about 1500 or 2000 names that are actively engages, they want to be there on that list. So that’s probably a more fare, a more accurate representation. But also I think with that particular show, we had a situation with the network that commissioned it had a very specific idea. Despite the fact that they awarded us the prize because they wanted us to bring what we had learned from doing “The Tunnel” to them on the release of the show, they still had a very specific idea of how they wanted to release it and there was a lot of things that we wanted to do that we could have done, that I think would have boosted the audience immensely.

Thomas: But they wanted to do it their way.

ENZO: But they did not let us do it. And that was their decision to make, that’s fair, but I think that de-compromised the release strategy and the subsequent audience they gained.

Thomas: Sorry, that’s really interesting bit I really want to go back to this thing with the email data base because I think that that’s where you stand apart from the average film maker out there. There are average second time film maker who have no data base and I think that the whole mind set is that you spend all your money to make a film, you make a film, you make a film. And you spend all this time and energy and effort and when the films released then you try and find an audience. And one of the things I’m advocating is people need to start building a data base. Data base are fans. I always say “you’re not data dependent, you’re fan dependent, bla bla bla. But I think you’re proving that and even with a small data base of 4-5000. I just want to talk a little bit more about this because I really want to encourage our listeners to take action on that. So, you use Mailchimp or technically speaking, what program did you use to harvest these email these addresses?

ENZO: Yes, it was Mailchimp and some custom scripting that our web-team did a lot for us as well, but essentially yes, I’ve been using Mailchimp since the first time I started playing these email data base stuff.

Thomas: And today can you say how big a data base you have today, approximately?

ENZO: It’s tricky because I have to kind of maintain “The Tunnel” data base separately to the database that I’ve kind of started from scratch with deadhousefilms which is my new company. So, it’s not that much bigger than what we had then, but I think it’s cleaner or more engaged, more solid, if it makes since.

Thomas: Yeah. How often do you send out a newsletter? Because one thing is, if people don’t hear from you in a couple of months, they forget who you are. [00:24:20 -inaudible] So how often do you send out an email and what do you say, what do you do?

ENZO: It’s really tricky, it’s really, really tricky to find that balance and it’s a limited trial and error in it. So for example we’re just about to start a campaign for our next release which is a film that deadhousefilm has acquired which is called “Inner demon” which is a horror film from a director called Nebrasky out of South Australia. So, you know, it’s been doing very well at festivals, it’s kind of a little bit buzzy and that comes out on November, 19th so that’s about a month away and much like we did with the “Airlock” release, that gives us one email a week out of our data base and as long as you structure those correctly I don’t think they get irritated with you. If you give them something new or something interesting to look at or read or consume with each one of those emails than they don’t get annoyed with you. If you’re sending out an email every week, when there’s nothing new to talk about you’re going to get unsubscribing because that’s just dull and boring.

Th: Of course.

ENZO: You know, I’ve been trying to keep this mainly regularly but the volume of emails increases around a release and then I kind of back-off a little bit in between because I don’t want people to get bored out, you know?

Thomas: Of course not, of course not. I mean for film makers listening to this, they go “Oh My God, I have to deal with this as well?” It’s another hack to worry? Yes, unfortunately, in this new world where 50.000 films are made every single year you need to stand out, you need to bring the audience, you need to have a data base. And it’s just a survival tool, it’s also…

ENZO: There’s a guide that I follow online with this internet marketing guru, he’s very, very wealthy, and he’s trained a load of people in online marketing in various products and fields and whatever. And the thing that he said is that if you can build an email data base, which is solid, like an engaged data base, not mining emails for people, data mining or whatever, but genuinely build a strong and engaged email data base, when you have suddenly something to sell that list equals to a license to print money,. It’s a very cynical way of looking at this but it’s true. If you have a thousand of people you believe in that I’m going to run a crown funding campaign and you’ve got a thousand people in that email data base that are already engaged with you and your work on a fence. Boom, that’s a huge amount of traffic instantly to your crowd funding campaign that would take a lot of hard work to build, otherwise.

Thomas: Absolutely, absolutely. I think that’s definitely the key and the way to look at it is – I think in the last podcast I said that Jesus had only 12 people and look what he did, you know? It’s alright getting the right people on board.

ENZO: Jesus [00:27:15 –inaudible]

Thomas: Let’s not go in into that one. But you talked about inner demons. Anyway, conflict there. So, this whole thing with the data base and it is a hard work, but I think that you actually write the engagement, getting people excited, getting people to read the email, but also to remind them, “Hey, we’re still here” and so as soon as something comes along you write these emails and I do them for myself about once a week and you have to get people engaged, it’s absolutely crucial. And if people unsubscribe, in one way I’m like a bit disappointed but also if they unsubscribe, well than they’re not the right people.

ENZO: Exactly. If they unsubscribe they probably are not the kind of people you wanted anyway.

Thomas: Exactly, so I’m not afraid of that. And then I don’t want to overburden them with information but I’m trying to give them information for free and inspire them, trying to get them all these things, and I think that’s the right mind set to come from. If you don’t like that, than you know what, go on and live your life. And I understand it, because we all get emails. But it still works and that’s why we need to build this data base. You need to represent your audience and when you go to pitch somewhere, you go to pitch the idea, the script, you pitch the talent, you pitch the crew but you also pitch the audience you bring with you. That’s how it is, that’s the new world and that’s why Facebook followers and likes and unfortunately on Twitter followers and this whole social media. The numbers, the do matter and it’s sad but it does matter. But I think a data base is even more important because of the algorithm, the changing of Facebook and Twitter and what they’re trying to do. The data base you own until they all unsubscribe. So, I really encourage that, so that’s great. So let’s talk about where you are right now with “Inner demon” which I think is exceptionally fascinating and I love that title, by the way. It’s a very strong title. So, after “Event 0”, you guys do “Airlock”, right? Or…?

ENZO: Actually, there was a project team before we made a documentary which might be interesting in the context of the conversation you’re talking about which Julian directed and I executed produced an adventure documentary, feature documentary called “The Crossing”

Thomas: I saw it, it was really, really good and strong. 

ENZO: Thank you, which was an adventure documentary about 2 guys crossing Victoria Island, first unsupported crossing on foot of Victoria island in the Arctic. And it was a decent little film and we got a [00:29:46 – inaudible] at Sydney Film Festival and we won an award and we’re going to do another DIY release and suddenly a distributor came knocking at the door and we were like “This is interesting, this is not a position we’ve been in before. Let’s explore. “ So we did and we elected to go the more traditional rout with that and it was funny because when you do that you have to trust that the distributor does know the market and what they’re doing etc., etc. I think we had a little bit of a lot of things going when we were talking about trying to do a limited theatrical release in Australia with this film. We were like “this could work, but I just don’t know”. And the result was – even though we didn’t mean it –it was a pretty decent way out at the cinemas despite the fact that it had a little bit of a festival buzz, it had a lot of media because of the coverage of the boys’ crossing being all over the news for several years and all this sort of stuff. So it was a really “horses for courses” kind of thing. We may have done a lot better with that film had we just elected to do a DIY in the first place.

Thomas: So let’s talk about the pros and cons of “Do it yourselves” and also distribute because when a distributer comes along they offer a lot of money for the CD. Did they offer money or was it a more deal?

ENZO: It was. We just sort of went “Look, we’ve been considered it was a long journey in making that particular film, that documentary was already in the works before we had even made “The tunnel”, before we’re even thinking of making that. So we just kind of chalked it up the background and worked with the guys that shot as things went along and as we could. So, we were like “we spent a lot of time, a lot of people’s investments and money and going to this sponsors, whatever. We don’t feel comfortable handing it over. We’re not going to nag a price but if were aren’t comfortable handing it over unless you can put a feared dollar amount on the table and something to guarantee that you’re not just going to give up on it and show them that it will never see the light of day. Which they did. So we did a money deal up front and now it’s just in the system and it’s trying to make its money back and the things that it does. It’s on the shelf at [00:32:14 – inaudible]. You can get it on iTunes and all of those things … that’s the reason why the distributor has all that channels kind of built in, right?

Thomas: They have the outlets. But every day that goes by I think we film makers get more and more outlets coming along. They might not be so physical but they are digital. And we are turning more and more … so do you think for all the film makers out there who are in the same situation that might get a little up front, they might get nothing, is it worth going to a distributor who will own your film – can I ask how many years did they own your film? 7, 10, 15?

ENZO: It depends on the distributor but there is anywhere from 7 to –I’ve seen deals from – 25.

Thomas: That’s typical for 25. So, you create something and then you give it to someone else and then you never, ever… until you get much older.

ENZO: It always comes down to – like I’ve done some talks before about this sort of thing as well and I’ve been invited to speak to people and you do workshops and whatever and the first thing I say is “you need to find what success is for you and this particular film.” If you’re key to success is to make money than you need to make decisions in a particular way. If you’re key definition of success is getting noticed, then you’re free to make decisions in other ways that may compromise the money but will get you noticed more, which is kind of what we did with “The tunnel”, right? So, is really a courses for horses.

Thomas: Absolutely. You’re absolutely right. You scarified for your career, for your audience or to make some money. Exactly. You have to treat every film completely individual, as a small kid, a small baby, as it is. Alright. “The Crossing”, so, after that you guys go on to do “Airlock” .

ENZO: Yes, that’s the most recent one.

Thomas: Yes and you went back to crowd fund or try a real crowdfunding site?

ENZO: We did. We ran a campaign on Kickstarter and try raise 100 grand on Kickstarted to welcome the investment that we had already received from Screen Trader. Because we were doing a Science-Fiction project. It was just going to be all kind of big so, as you can appreciate CGI said that those things don’t come cheap so well. It looks like we had a money and it didn’t go very far so we though we’ll go back to crowd funding and let’s be ambitious if we’re going to do it. Let’s go for full hundred K and see what happens and the end results of that exercise was that we managed to wrap on pledges of something like 30000 dollars but we were on Kickstarter so we didn’t see any of that target in the time that we had. So it was a bit of a blow.

Thomas: I understand that but you still go ahead and make the film.

ENZO: Yes, we just restructured and we rethought the approach and found other ways to do it. We investigated some brand connections, see if we could get some brand money involved and we had moderate success and then a lot of the agencies we were talking to, either closed down or re-structured because it seemed like everybody was running out of money for themselves let alone for other people so it was a really weird time to come at the beginning of 2014 we were like “we just have to push through and find a way to do it on the money that we do have.” And that’s essentially what we did. We just restructured the project to maximize what we had, pull a couple of clever deals, with — for example there was a big Si-Fi film shooting in Sydney and we managed to strike a deal with them to get a bunch of materials from them that we were able to recycle for our sets. Which saved us an enormous amount of money and we were able to funnel the cash to other places in the production, you know?

Thomas: Yes. Absolutely. Ok, that’s very smart; instead of focusing on what you don’t have instead of what you have and try to make it work with what you have. And I think that so un-invasive about you is that you focus not on what you don’t have. “I want 10 million dollars, I want 100 million dollars, I want that camera, I want this, I want that” but you don’t have that. Focus on what you have and get the best out of what you have. And then go to the next level after that.

ENZO: As Julian and I put in some presentations we’ve done is why don’t you turn your own abilities into assets.

Thomas: I like that a lot. That’s good. So, that comes out and you’re directing this one, right?

ENZO: No, I produce this one. [00:37:04 – inaudible] directed “Airlock” and [00:37:06 – inaudible]. So I wrote it and produced it as with most of the things that I’ve done. We released it in July this year and what we did, rather than give it away like most web series is I decided that the market has been shifting and I can feel market shifting and I’m like “In a few years’ time there’s going to be no difference between web series or TV series. You know? In some ways you can look at things like “House of Cards” of the world and sort of like we think that’s web series that came out, first and foremost.

So, I’m like “I’m just going to experiment. I’m just going to play with this a little bit as I have done in the past on just about everything so I’m close to my own place. And, we went like “Let’s put the first episode up online on YouTube for free, freely sharable and let’s just try to sell what’s left. They have bundled up a very generous package with the rest of the series and behind the scenes features it and sound track albums and anything that we could think of that would value to this, we added a music video in there and charged a really small amount and see what happens. Which is what we did and we’ve had our success. I can’t say that nobody’s retiring to their Tuscan villas or anything like that on what “Airlock” made from sells by the web-sites. However, it has been an exercise in data base building, it has been an exercise in standing my ground and going “No, actually we spent a lot of money on this and there is a value here. It’s going to be leaked and it will get pirated and I’m in a position, like every studio, that I don’t have millions of dollars to spend fighting that.

So, if I can’t create a $5 package that’s attractive enough to make someone want to buy it than there are never going to be somewhat who can buy it or what I’m doing is just not good enough. That’s kind of what we wanted. And so, the interesting thing these is what’s happened is that again as the market has shifter forward a little bit, it looks like now — it’s not confirmed and I should probably be careful with what I say — but it looks like we may have even sold the show to a quote on quote broadcaster, so because I didn’t give it away for free and do all those things but did create a bit of an audience for it and an awareness and it’s been doing very well on festivals and we just won this [00:39:44 – inaudible] about a week ago at the Australian online video awards.

Thomas: Congratulations, I know.

ENZO: There’s still some market for it to be exploited but the point is where we were 4 years ago the money is cashing up finally. So, I would like to be ahead again. I feel like right now it’s a really good idea to just take a step back for a little while and go “I know where it’s going, but there’s no money in it just yet, so let me play in this space a little bit so that when everybody does catch up to where it’s going, and where we all know it’s going, I’m going to be at a better place than I am now because I’ll already be there. You know what I mean?

Thomas: Yes, absolutely. So let me ask you this. So, in calling to you, being a film maker but all different hats that you wore is film making a very expensive hobby or is it a business, is it an income. I mean, I know you have 4 kids. I mean, can you survive, and can you make money?

ENZO: I think you can, I think the biggest challenge, despite the fact that we’re all connected with the internet and bla bla bla, I think the biggest challenge that I faced and that we face as film makers in Australia is that it’s a very difficult place to make things happen on any large scale, right? So, that’s not to say that it’s impossible and it’s not to say that success doesn’t happen. Apparently this year has been the most successful theatrical box-office for Australian films in a couple of decades, right? Thanks mostly to a couple handful of really big budget endeavors, so it’s not impossible, but it’s is a pyramid where the stuff that’s at the top is  very huge and the stuff that’s at the bottom is trying to stretch the same $5. There are a lot of those people. So it’s very competitive and it’s very difficult. I am still not at a place where – I mean I work in the industry that you aim – you know as an editor, or producer or whatever so I’m not just making an income on my web series and drama projects just yet. But I feel like I’m at a place that that’s starting to shift.

Thomas: Is this a long tale principle that you create all this content, you build an audience, a little bit here, a little bit there and overall it all adds up

ENZO: Pardon me! A little bit, yes. And a little bit is that again I’ve allowed to start thinking a little bit differently so if you want to make some money and do some business in the current climate, it’s still shifting, right? Because you’ll try to work it out, like you look at Netflix they’ve got one way of doing things, You look at Stan and their different way of doing things so their  still very much thinking locally. And in Australia an audience rose. Netflix is more on a global level.

Thomas: For those people that don’t know what Stan is, for those that aren’t living in Australia, it’s trying to be Netflix but for Australia, right?

ENZO: It’s doing a lot for Australia.  So, that’s two different levels already. You have people making very successful web series that they’re giving away for free because they’ve essentially lost readers for them to either pitch a big movie idea or to sell some merchandize, or whatever it is. There are so many ways of doing it that I can’t take my experience and go “Well, this is how you do it” Because there isn’t “this is how you do it” anymore. But as you say the most important part is going “Is there an audience for what I’m making and how much of that audience do I have direct access to?” And if I don’t have direct access to them than I need to work out how to put what I’m doing in from of them. Not try to get them come to me, but how do I get that in front of where they already are.

Thomas: Absolutely. And I can understand if you’re a film maker today starting up, how stressful it can be but it think it’s always been stressful in the film business because no matter what country you’re from  no matter where you are in the world and no matter what you brought up, it does matter. It’s always been so much money, so much equipment or so many theatres and so many distributors, there’s always been this short fall and I think the idea is that it can seem like it’s less stress full because there are so many outlets but if someone had told – I have these gaps sometimes — Charlie Chaplin back in the day that “yes, you can press this button and millions of people can hear what you’re saying”, he would have flipped. He would have gone “Oh, my God”. I mean he was a guy who fought the establishment, right? He was trying to get his voice up there. And then he started [00:44:36] and he couldn’t get through and this people were controlling him. If you had told any story teller 100 years ago, 200 years ago, you press this button and your story goes out, you can reach these people that can follow you, they can sign up, they can email. They would have went “Well, sign me up” So, I think that as stressful that it can be, it’s also an amazing world of opportunities and I’m not saying that you wouldn’t have a change with the old system, but you have definitely [00:45:03 – inaudible] because you’ve found different ways of doing it. And I think its innovation and I think that the only thing that’s constant in life is change. And, change is certainly happening in the industry. They’re rapidly passed. And I am certainly scared of it. I mean I love your course going “Let’s find out how it works” A lot of stuff doesn’t work, let’s find out what works. “I need to make it work in somewhat or another”. And I think that’s the only approach you can do in order to make it. Sitting on a occasions — I’m not saying people should fill on their occasions and go have some fun, granted if that is available in that country. I think you should absolutely do that but be aware that that’s not the only path any more. There are some many other paths. And the problem is no matter what funding situation they are in the world, it’s always limited funds. And a lot of it is being given away for people that are already very established so what do you do to establish yourself? You do what you’re doing. And that’s why it’s so amazing, that’s why I wanted to have you on the show to hopefully inspire people that there are ways, don’t give up, there are still many ways

ENZO: At the end of the day it’s about building your own audience, right? So, if Spike Lee launches a Kickstarter campaign and raises a million dollars in no time. Why, because he’s Spike Lee, he already has a built in audience that he’s amassed over 20 years of making very successful films. If I had tried to get exactly the same film, well I mean I’m African-American so I probably wouldn’t have tried but if I tried to — as an example for argument’s sake –tried to exactly the same film crowd funded the tune to a million dollars and if there was nothing different other than the fact that Spike Less was not attached, there’s no way I would have hit a million dollars for that film, right? so, all of the same principles that applied in the old world in terms of what attracts an audience, what has quote of quote box office draw, it all still applies.

Thomas: Absolutely.

ENZO: Except that it’s slightly different because it’s not just about who can bring money to the box office, it’s, as you said, how was the Twitter followers, who has the captive audience that you can put this stuff in front of and go “This is what I’m doing now”.

Thomas: Exactly. And I think that that’s the key and I think that no matter who you are and what you’re doing, if you’re listening to this podcast, you have to start building your data base. Without a data base, it’s like, how do you get through, there’s so much noise out there. You need to start building and how do you get people to sign up for data base if you haven’t made a film yet? Well, you start talking about your film. You can go podcasts just like I’m doing right now. You can do video blogs, you can do blogs, you can do updates, you can do pictures from the set, you can do a story reports. It’s so stuff you can share and encourage people to be parts and there are so many outlets to do it. And it might be a lot of noise on Facebook then try, one of the many other new fancy social media and I can’t even keep track of which one is the hit, which one is the right one right now. But there’s so many places. People are using Periscope now I mean there are so many ways you can do it. All you have to do is build followers. You have to have an audience you can speak to and that’s what it comes down to and that’s what story telling is all the way back to setting out the campsites. Going to towns and form an audience. That’s what it is. You have to find your audience. And that’s where we live off. And I bet you that Spike Lee without knowing all the details I bet you when he crowd funded he did not have a data base, he had no awareness, he had people following him meaning that they liked him because of the films he’s done. But I bet he didn’t have a data base. And now he [:0048:22 – inaudible] and now he has a data base, we do a crowd funding campaign, you get those email addresses. Even if he doesn’t knew one, I think he just announced a deal with the Amazon and he’s going to do a film with them but, he’s bringing a data base and that’s what the values is for Netflix, that’s what the values is for Amazon, it’s in the data base. Google, Facebook, who do have access to how many people can you use. And you need to just start thinking like those and unfortunately we have to start thinking a little more business in order to survive in this film world. And I think that’s the key thing for people to know about.

ENZO: You’re doing well.

Thomas: Can you tell me again, being innovative, — I was blown away by this — and you experimented with the latest that you’re trying to do a– what’s it called on PGP network, they have these bundles, these packages now.

ENZO: Yes, speak about bundle?

Thomas: Yes, can you speak about that?

ENZO: Yes, bundles are very DIY exercise as well so, you log on with an account with a return bundle and you upload your material and you can send a gate, is that right? So, it’s kind of a premium level so you give something away for free — for argument’s sake, what we did with “Airlock, let’s just use that as an example — the first episode was available as a free download, you could grab the torrent, second down and away you went. But if you wanted to see the rest of the stuff which was as you said all the music and the trailers and behind the scenes, etc. etc, and the rest of the show, than it was behind the pay gate of $5. So you pay $5 and then you get send access to the premium bundle torrent, which enables you to download all of the other stuff as well. Now, the thing with that system that’s very interesting and particularly from an email data base building point of view is you can set that gate to be anything. You can set it to be a dollar amount? Sure, you can also send it to be behind an email. So all they have to do is give you an email address and they can download the premium torrent. Or I believe that you can even send it behind Facebook. You can chose what’s most useful to you so that you can use it to create your data base or your audience or try and make some money. Either way, it’s a useful tool because the bit torrent audience is so large and huge.

Thomas: And this is the key thing. You have to go with the audiences and in your mind, there’s a large audience out there and you worked with them before hopefully they will go and support you and it’s just a big torn side to kill the networks. Some of them are trying. I won’t say they’re trying to jail or maybe they are but they’re trying to say “Ok, we do bring value and we do have an audience here and some of them want to pay” Here’s my take. Your film will get pirated not matter what you do, how many order box, how many security copies, whatever you do you’re still get pirated. Instead of –I’m not saying you should stop fighting it –but instead of being annoyed by it, it’s just a matter of fact. And I always say “if you’re film has not been pirated, you should be insulted” that means nobody cares about your film. So deal with it, move on from that. If you’re film is pirated you might as well work with the pirated. If you can’t beat them, join them. So that’s your approach and that’s what I really like about it that you go and do this. Can anyone do it with the bundle?

ENZO: Absolutely and it’s completely DIY. Just go to the website bittorent.com and I think its bundle.bittorrent.com and it’s completely 100% DIY from there.  I should have just made a distinction as well because I do think it’s an important one in that Bit torrent.com is not like Piratebay, it a company that don’t feed out illegal material. Right? Anything that you’ll find on bundle.bittorrent.com is completely legit, 100% put there by the suppliers. There’s content on there from Sony and all kinds of totally 100% legit publishers. So it’s not like it’s a Bit torrent trying to go legit by helping create, they just want to make money. They’ve created technology that unfortunately gets mistuned by a bunch of people. So, you would be kind of like blinding the postal system for people sending drugs through the mail. It’s sort of like that, do you know what I mean? It built a technology which is amazing for sharing enormous amounts of files and enormous sized files very quickly, however that just get robed into people wanting to illegally share things and that’s where the problem in. But as subtle a distinction as it may be but it’s very important one to make.

Thomas: Thanks for letting me know about that just, Carol wants it all. So, let’s just finish up about talking about “Inner Demon”. You said you picked up the film. What does that mean that you picked up the film?

ENZO: So, it’s kind of my first hand in distribution if you will, as if not something that I have created myself. This film didn’t have a distribution deal or a speaking to [00:53:44 – inaudible] at film festivals last year and she was saying that and she was lamenting the fact and bla bla bla and I said “What can you do with these things” and I kind of laid down a plan for her. It’s the classing writing on the back of the neck and kind of thing. And she said look that’s great and I don’t know how to do that or I don’t have the time or the inclination to do that. I would just rather to move on to my next film and rather impulsively at the time from me, probably, I just kind of went “Just let me do it”. So, I signed a deal in certain terms in the way that I guess most distributors will sort of sign a title for distribution but with the idea of what we’re going to do is we’re going to release it via the deadhouse site as we’re doing with content. Market it directly to that data base, controversial data base, because she’s been building her own audience over the last deals which she was making. This is her second feature film now and she crowdfunded a portion of it as well so yes it’s the first thing that I’m releasing that I haven’t personally had anything to do with the creation of the content.

Thomas: Very interesting. So, you’re put it up in your own website and where else are you going to put the film? How was the film going to make money? Can you explain that? What’s the plan for that?

ENZO: Yes, absolutely. So, people will be paying for the film to download it

THOMAS: How much will they be paying? Sorry.

ENZO:   We’ve set the price at 16 Australian dollars so we will be accessing our platform as well; it’s going to be online, things like iTunes and hopefully Netflix and things like that as well but

Thomas: How did you get a license?

ENZO: [00:55:30- inaudible] if you’re an indie you’ll have stuff like a juice and the stripper or something like that.

Thomas: So which one were you using? I’m just trying to take the apart for people to know what are you using.

ENZO: Cool, we’re looking at using the stripper. Sounds fun?

Thomas: Yes!

ENZO: Because it’s tricky. Back in destructive media my last company we tried to apply for a direct account with iTunes to be able to supply our content directly and we just had enough of the volume or titles for them to take us seriously and unfortunately which is probably why it’s notoriously can be difficult to get a title up onto iTunes unless you are a quote on quote distributor.

Thomas: Yes, well absolutely they don’t want to talk to and this is the way the system is.

ENZO: They don’t care if you have 100 films they’re all about it, so that’s the trade-off. And yes, it’s a little idea to what we’re doing with “Airlocks” so we’ll have an email and social campaign and advertising that will go out over the course of a month, roughly, from now. And, the release on the 19th of November and will be accessible via the website, and it will be the whole you know free versus paying things. so it will be a portion of the film that will be available to watch for free, it will be a couple of scenes, in addition to the trailer and behind the scenes things basically being generous enough to people so that they can give it a good gage to the film and sign, hopefully get them excited about showing our feedbox for what is essentially a new release film that they can download directly onto any device that they want

Thomas: Ok, great. Can you talk a little about the script or is that top secret between you and the film maker?

ENZO: It’s about what you expect to see what iTunes, additional distribution deal, however because we’re doing very effectively online and there is a feasible product involved, the original theatrical release is involved and that sort of stuff. The costs of getting the film out there are significantly lower. 

Thomas: Absolutely, that’s what is amazing. That you made something is there’s so many outlets to get it out there, it’s great to get it out there. So, you’re new company, the website, is deadhousefilms?

ENZO: Yes, deadhousefilms.com. You can sign up to the mailing list there and check out all the things that we do have currently available and some of the stuff that’s coming out as well.

Thomas: I encourage everyone that listens to this to go to deadhousefilms.com and sign up and [00:58:17] doing things differently and try to reach an audience. so you want to follow Enzo and what he does from a — I mean obviously if you get the email you will be seen as the audience but it’s not from a film maker — but as an audience, how can you see the audience and how to email to get. I really encourage you to do that. Any other ways people can follow you? What are your Twitter handles, you Facebook?

ENZO: Enzo: underscore Tedeschi on twitter or deadhousefilms on twitter and you can find deadhousefilms on Facebook as well.

Thomas: All right. Just finishing up here and going a little bit back. I know you’ve involved with the 2 documentaries that also did very well. It was in the food world. Can we talk about “Comfort for change” and “Food matters”?

ENZO: Yes, we can talk, absolutely. I mean that it is 100% a good question because I don’t direct access to that data but I can certainly talk about those projects in as much details as I can

Thomas: Because in these projects you were the editor, right?

ENZO: No, I was a producer as well but the control of the project is very much James Lauren’s team who were the other 2 produces and directors of the film.

Thomas: Yes, and so what’s amazing about that is that they had built a little empire pushing…

ENZO: That’s probably fair

Thomas: Yes, And they’re very much into all this thing with the title “Food matters” they really believe that you have to eat the right kind of food and they have, if anyone, harvested a huge following online, right? Can you just talk a little bit about some of the strategies and what they’ve done and why it really matters to film makers?

ENZO: Yes, this was the first the project where my eyes were opened to the potential of online marketing and how it works in the film world, right? And I realized that a lot of the marketing techniques that I was seeing on the internet that I found that at the time, which we’re talking about 2007 or something at the time I found a little bit annoying because it felt like strange to me. Because I didn’t quite understand what was going on that I saw them later on a plane. Because I was trying to get them on the [01:00:38 – inaudible] first film you get something really exciting, really special we should be talking to distributors, we should be talking to bla bla bla and its theatrical, and etc etc. And I don’t know if that’s we want to do and they lay down this plan for me which was basically a really sound, solid, online marketing plan for how they were going to sell DVD’s. And I looked at it and I kind of went “that actually looks like it could work” so, I been around and I’ll just going to stand back and watch you because I’m fascinated to see what’s going to happen. and so what they did is that set up a little website with this quiz page and a trailer before the released and started building their email data base and via publicity and whatever and I think by the time they release they have maybe a couple thousand emails and then that steadily grew and grew and helped that the material they had, it was quite in some ways controversial and important tool of people so it’s very sharable and people were talking about it a lot. And so I think and I may be corrected on this because they’ve been something in the first 12 months via direct distribution and via their website, people going to foodmatters.tv in think it was, or foodmatters.com and buy DVD’s to ship around the world. Had sold something like a quarter of a million DVD’s in the first 12 months and my mind was completely blown by this at this point. I was like “holly molly” this is a thing. This is what independent film makers should be doing. This is amazing.

Thomas: Because they’re by-passing the traditional distributors and going directly to the audience by building a data base

ENZO: Yes, that’s right, but then again what needed up happening was , especially in the United States, a lot of these distributors that specialize in that kind of content came on board as well and so they suddenly the volume of the units that they were shipping increased exponentially because they weren’t just using their won platform, but because they had used it at first that were able to detail in some way the terms in these deals so when the distributors came and said “well, we can sell you a film and a stroll in the usual traditional deal points, they’re going “well, that’s dumb, because we’ve already sold a quarter of a million copies without you. Why the film will give you everything? No, if you want to do this, you can do this but you’re going to do this on our terms “and they got that out of the line. And so by the time I think in 2010 I want to say, if it wasn’t 2011 when we made the follow up to that documentary they had established them so well that I think they managed to sell something like 20 thousand DVD’s in the first 10 days.

Thomas: Yes

ENZO: You know? And again I think they did a free screening for the first 10 days of release. You could sign up with an email, again there’s the email watch the film for free in the first 10 days of release and then you could buy the film on DVD. So that drove a lot of that because they had something like 450.000 views in the first 10 days in something like a hundred countries.

Thomas: So that means that they got 150 thousand email addresses and now they can go back to all this people and say “hey, you liked it, why don’t you buy the DVD?” “Do you want to send it to some friends; do you want to watch it again? This is the price”. I mean it’s actually brilliantly thought. You’re talking about having a data base of 4 thousand, they managed to establish a data base of 150 thousand email addresses in 10 days and I think it’s fascinating what they’re doing now outside the film industry because we exchange things so traditionally in the film industry from the mindset. And it’s just refreshing to see someone who is not torn up in the film’s scene of work world. Go out and make what is basically a film but not thinking like it. Not traditionally going out and doing [01:04:38] so that’s why it’s so fascinating. I think that propelled your career and has gotten you to where you are today and I think that this is fascinating.

ENZO: It does become a numbers’ game in the end so if you say 4 thousand against 150 thousand; if you talk to any marketers, anywhere, traditionally, even traditional direct mail marketing like letter box drops. There’s a percentage of– if you send out 100 fliers you’re probably going to get a response of 1 to 2%. Right? So, those kind of numbers still kind of apply. At about 1000 emails you’ll probably get probably the same percentage back. But if you’re building a data base of people that are interested, you manage to get small percentage up a little bit. So, if you’ve got 4000 emails, and you’re converting 10% of those into sales, that’s ok. I’ll take it for 400 sales over nothing. However, when you’re starting form 150 thousand emails and you’re converting 10% of those, suddenly you’re talking about real money.

Thomas: Serious money and that’s what they did and that’s how they started building a little empire. It’s fascinating what they’re doing and good on them and they’re also on a mission to try and help people to eat better which is so much needed than this chemical induced and long-shelf life kind of world, but that’s  completely entirely different topic so let’s not go there. Maybe I should bring them on at some point. Anyway, Enzo really, really good having you here. thank you so much for giving us your time and it’s very inspiring and very innovating what you’re doing and keep doing what you’re doing because a lot of people need to see what you’re doing. So we’ve got your twitter handle, Facebook handle, your website, anything else? People can follow you anywhere else? Anywhere else where people can see what you’re doing?

ENZO: No, that’s more than enough of Enzo for anybody to handle. Thank you very much for having me on the talk; it was a pleasure chatting to you.

Thomas: Enzo, it’s always a pleasure take care, we’ll speak some.

ENZO: Thanks, Thomas.

Thomas: Thanks, bye. So there you have it, Enzo: Tedeschi. Absolutely fascinating and he’s absolutely innovative and I really hope that you guys see new possibilities and new ways of looking at it. And what I’m trying to do with these podcasts is try to give people information. I was travelling the world for a long time and me and my wife did 80 workshops around the world and that’s great. It’s fascinating speaking on 5 different continents and I missed out on Africa and Antarctica. I don’t think much film is happening there in particular. But, I’m not saying this to impress, but I’m saying this press upon you that this is what I love to do. And I love to share information and this is my way of not travelling is doing these podcasts. And, if you want to know more I’ve done a couple of things you can do, so let me just see if I can find my link here. If you want to find out more, I’ve done a workshop earlier this year that someone filmed and I found that they’re giving away for free or you can pay 0, you can pay 5, 10, 20 bucks, you can pay whatever you want. But go to gumroad.com forward flesh “I” forward flash “crowd funding seminar”. That’s gumroad.com forward flesh “I” forward flash “crowd funding seminar”. You can watch it there for free or donate some money. If you want to work with me I have different coaching programs, I’ve done 21 crowdfunding campaigns and one of the more affordable ones starts at $97 a month so it means you get to speak with me. So it’s gum.co.sfi.97. So, go to gum.co. forward flash sfi.97, so I’m going to say that for the third time. Go to gum.co. forward flash sfi.97 and the sfi stands for smart film income. The worksite that we’re filming on is on it is way and hopefully it will be done soon. I saw the second version of it from my web developer and lots of things we need to do but it should be up and running soon. I really hope you enjoyed this, I hope you learned from this and I hope that you got inspired to go out there and make your product very successful. I’ve got a lot of people line up for the next podcast, and I can’t wait to share more information with you. Thank you for listening and thank you so much. Bye.

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